Christian James Michel, the middleman in the AgustaWestland deal, says he has written to Prime Minister Narendra Modi to intervene while claiming he is willing to come to India to face the authorities.
Speaking to Ashish Mehrishi of CNN-News18 over telephone from an undisclosed location in a foreign country, Michel denied reports of him and his father being close to the Gandhi family. "It's an exaggeration that my father Mr Wolfgang Michel was a close aide of the Gandhi family. From my own knowledge, I can say he was not very close. I also have never been in touch with any family member or any extended family member of the Gandhi family," he said.
Here's full text of the interview:
CNN-News18: Mr Michel, this is Ashish Mehrishi from CNN-News18.
Christian Michel: Hi!
CNN-News18: As decided, we are going ahead with your interview. To put first things first. You have written this letter to the Prime Minister. A copy of the letter is in our possession now. What is purpose of writing this letter?
Christian Michel: Well the purpose was really to ask questions. Is this correct and are you aware on what is going on and how inappropriate it is?
CNN-News18: I have gone through the letter, you say you are not involved in changing the flying height, you are not involved in any form of illegal gratification, you are not aware of what has transpired as far as money trail goes. Then why were you travelling to India during that period of time?
Christian Michel: Actually, I was performing many duties for the company, developing other programmes and I also had other businesses in India. I was developing my glass business. I was looking after charity there, had many activities. I liked the place. If I had nothing to do, I used to always go to India.
CNN-News18: Were you never involved in any form of dealings of AgustaWestland in India?
Christian Michel: Oh no! No AgustaWestland. I am advising them on other programmes but only UK products until end of 2006.
CNN-News18: Ok! Now as I understand from your letter - during 2006 you signed a contract with AgustaWestland and in 2010 there was a contract signed by the Indian government with AgustaWestland. So during that four-year time you had enough opportunity. So how can you deny that you were not at all involved?
Christian Michel: Ok! Let me explain. We had no contract in 2006, what happened at the end of 2006 is that for the first time I met Mr Orsi, the then Chairman of AgustaWestland. In 2007 I went back for a meeting to explain Indian market, what is going on. The first thing I explained to him was that under the laws DPP you are not allowed to engage an agent. So I never had a contract to promote the VVIP.
CNN-News18: No, but than what sort of a contract you had with AgustaWestland and why are these people naming you? Especially, if you go through the deposition that Mr Haschke has given before the Italian court. It very clearly mentions your name. He says it is you who dictated the alleged kickback budget sheet. How can you deny these allegations, because it is on these evidences the Indian agencies are relying on and that is why they want to question you.
Christian Michel: Yes, you are absolutely correct. The reason Mr Hashcke denounced me and made these allegations is because in 2009 I refused to cooperate on a certain proposal that he made.
CNN-News18: What was this proposal, if you can kindly disclose?
Christian Michel: Yes I can. It is unfortunate. He requested me to finance him so that he could return some money to Finmeccanica directors.
CNN-News18: Ok!
Christian Michel: I refused. Having done that... but what I haven't appreciated at that point of time, because he took this very badly. Then I made another important mistake. I told Mr Orsi that the way the engineering programme was created within, we received no offset benefits. Now would you like me to explain that.
CNN-News18: Yes please!
Christian Michel: Under Indian rules, if you buy directly from India, goods and services in your agreed offset term, you can get offset credit. This can be counted against your offset liability you can take on when you sign the contract. What I explained to Mr Orsi was that the contract that they have agreed with Mr Haschke gels to Tunisia and then to AgustaWestland. So it means AgustaWestland is not the contracting body. Therefore, it is not eligible for offset. So I said this is ridiculous, we should stop this, AgustaWestland should have a direct relationship.
CNN-News18: So you mean to say that you were aware of some sort of corruption that was happening in AgustaWestland?
Christian Michel: No you can't say corruption in those days. I told you it was an engineering contract. I still don't know what this is because I was not involved at all. So I had no idea but what I do know is that we were not getting any offset benefit and I told Mr Orsi that this was not right. Be prepared. My advice and that is what I am supposed to do seek advice. You should be looking a direct relationship with the engineering company and who I understood were doing very good work. So this made Mr Haschke very angry as I was interfering into his business. I am afraid I made an enemy.
CNN-News18: So you mean to say that you were not involved anywhere and Indian agencies are trying to trouble you?
Christian Michel: They are experts and they are very clever people. They have their doubts which is fair enough as the Italian Court is. But I have been through all of this in Italy and this is what the key point of my complaint is, if there was new evidence.
CNN-News18: No, no! What I fail to understand Mr Michel, you are wanted in India for quite some time now. These investigation is on for some time now. Is it that now you are seeking help from the Prime Minister only when a Red Corner notice has been issued against you?
Christian Michel: Red Corner Notice certainly got my attention. It is a very serious matter but I have been hoping. If you go through the articles of June and July in the Indian press stating that the CBI was winding (up) the investigation.
CNN-News18: That I have checked Mr Michel. I believe you are factually incorrect. I have checked with the CBI as well as with the Enforcement Directorate. There is no closure report that has been filed by the CBI and ED never closed its investigations. So to my understanding anyone can take this as an attempt to mislead the Prime Minister?
Christian Michel: Let me counter that argument. I have no ability to talk with the CBI or ED. They would never speak with me. All I can go on with is the press reports which are very accurate in India. In India the press is probably the most effective in the world. Let me explain. So all I had was the press articles stating the investigations were winding down, Italy was winding down. So I naturally assumed that things were becoming clear.
CNN-News18: Ok, now talking about this alleged budget sheet, the kickback budget sheet. There are various people who have been named. Now what I want to understand from you is were the people from politics, from bureaucracy, from the Air Force - were you at any point of time in touch with these people specially the Gandhi family or Ahmed Patel. People say AP is Ahmed Patel in that sheet. The Defence Secretary, the Chief of Air Staff, the CAG, CVC - were you at any point of time in touch with these people and when you travelled to India, where were you staying and who were the people you were in touch with?
Christian Michel: I have not been in contact of any of these individuals mentioned on that sheet. If that is what those abbreviations mean which I don't know. If that's what it means. I assume you are correct but I don't know. I have not been in touch with anyone of them, any person that you have just mentioned on that budget sheet, not even once.
CNN-News18: Not even once?
Christian Michel: No, not even once on the names you just mentioned on the budget sheet?
CNN-News18: No, but I have evidence where I had done a story myself. You were in touch with some Air Force officials. You were in touch with Air Marshal Gautam Nayyar, where you had financed travel of Gautam Nayyar and his family members. Why were you doing so?
Christian Michel: They are retired individuals who are allowed to give advice. These are not serving officers. Many officers who retire give advice to people on how to proceed.
CNN-News18: So you pay for their family members as well, for the travel of their family members as well?
Christian Michel: I believe your own company gives some benefits and perks, and all sorts of things.
CNN-News18: Other things that I would like to understand from you is we have been taking about your late father, and as you say press articles in India are very accurate, I went through some articles in the past and they very clearly say that Mr Wolfgang Michel has been a very close aide of the Gandhi Family. Is it true? How far it is true?
Christian Michel: I think it is an exaggeration. Everybody would like to claim to be very close. That's an exaggeration. From my own knowledge I can say he was not very close.
CNN-News18: Have you ever been in touch with the Gandhi family because even the Indian investigative agencies would like to investigate on this issue. They believe that your family has been very close to Gandhi family as well as the Congress.
Christian Michel: I have never been in touch with any family member or the extended family member of the Gandhi family, not even once.
CNN-News18: Never?
Christian Michel: Never
CNN-News18: So who were the people you were in touch with when you travelled to India?
Christian Michel: So what I used to do when I went to India, 80% I used to do my normal business and catch up with people like Mr Nayyar in explaining to me on how we should be going about induction, if an idea is not settled. These were the kind of people I was talking to.
CNN-News18: Did you have a liaison office in India?
Christian Michel: No I didn't. I used to work from office of AgustaWestland.
CNN-News18: There are certain assets that have been attached. Assets of Mr Tyagi, assets of one Mr Nanda who is supposed to be very close to you. Assets have been attached by Enforcement Directorate. Are you aware of any sort of corruption in the AgustaWestland case. Has Mr Hasckhe paid any amount to Mr SP Tyagi. Are you aware of any of these things?
Christian Michel: Let me be fair on this. I don't know what Mr Haschke was doing. We had for a very long time a very poor relationship and he would not divulge so much to me. I did meet with him - Mr Julie Tyagi - which is true, who is a affable businessman, doing many things. I even helped him out once financially. I have no problem with that. A very nice man but as far as their activity in Defence Ministry, I don't know what they are doing.
CNN-News18: Have you been in any of the Defence Ministry deals earlier or your father?
Christian Michel: My father used to advice many companies, the same way as I do.
CNN-News18: No, but how do you differentiate between an advisor and a middlemen? To give an example, I have some figures. Now what I understand there is a transaction of 4.7 million dollars which has reached into your account Global Services FZE from AgustaWestland. What I understand from Indian investigative agencies that they have evidence in the form of invoices and a copy of the contract. This is basically on the Pawan Hans deal that we are talking about.
Christian Michel: Middlemen, which is illegal, obtains a commission on a product resulting into sale…that is illegal.
CNN-News18: No, but than what is 4.7 million dollars for. This is huge money. Is this consultancy?
Christian Michel: No, no! What that is referring to is a product recall programme for W 30's which did not involve Pawan Hans. We excluded Pawan Hans because of the condition of the aircraft, sitting in Mumbai they were not a threat. What we were concerned about, what the company was concerned about was putting W 30's back in air and with the age and poor support, and the total lack of development of that aircraft, it is not safe anymore. If one was to crash - one, the name would have been rubbished and there would have been huge product liability issue. So a decision was taken that all possible aircraft should be recalled and it did not involve Pawan Hans.
CNN-News18: No, but there is a copy of the contract and this is what agencies claim.
Christian Michel: This is certainly not your fault. You are misinformed. No contract exists which says must buy aircraft from Pawan Hans.
CNN-News18: I can understand that there is a tiff between you and Mr Haschke. There is a person named Mr Nanda in India and in his statement he has accepted that he was holding assets in India on your behalf, and now almost Rs 6.5 crore worth assets have been attached. Why should anyone in India hold assets on your behalf?
Christian Michel: He is a very good friend. Poor chap is my travel agent. I am very sorry for whatever has happened to him because he is not involved in any of this. What me and Mr Nanda did, we tried to develop some businesses. He helped me because staying in hotel was not great over a period of time. So he got a flat, it is not my flat as I am not allowed to own property in India. Though I helped him financially and he is a great friend and I know his family.
CNN-News18: Have you ever been inside the Defence Ministry or any other government offices in India?
Christian Michel: No defence related office ever.
CNN-News18: Air Force Headquarters, Defence Ministry?
Christian Michel: Never, never.
CNN-News18: How many times have you travelled to India in the past?
Christian Michel: On every opportunity that I can. For example if I am in Dubai and I have a weekend, I would travel to India.
CNN-News18: So who were the people in the political sector or bureaucracy that you were in touch with?
Christian Michel: None actually, because it is just not allowed. It will be wrong thing to do. This is exactly why I do not get contact with these people.
CNN-News18: So you say that you were only an advisor?
Christian Michel: Yes!
CNN-News18: So were you a legal advisor, or what sort of an advisor?
Christian Michel: Well, I had many duties. I was going to send you a document this morning which shows the duty section of my contract which lists 40 odd duties that I am supposed to do. I am supposed to keep an eye on any change in Indian law, comment on the operational changes in DPP.
CNN-News18: So how did you have so much knowledge about the Indian market?
Christian Michel:I am probably the only one who has read the DPP. I follow all these things and that is my job to be an expert.
CNN-News18: No, what amazes me is why all fingers are pointing towards you? In India everyone believes you are the main accused in the AgustaWestland scam. So why are you not coming to India? You are wanted in India, you can easily surrender to the Indian agencies. Why are you not doing so?
Christian Michel: Good question. I could certainly do that. I have been fighting in Italy for two years from a distance trying to explain why, where, what and we have been successful and we have been found not guilty. There is no evidence of international corruption that involved huge amount of work. I have a young family and if I go to India and I get stuck there say for two, three, four years how will I support my family, and I could well be stuck there.
CNN-News18: To my understanding extradition has already been moved by Indian agencies against you. They are writing to UAE. They have already written to authorities in UK. So what is the escape route for you? Why don't you surrender?
Christian Michel: Surrendering - That is exactly the point. Look at the Bofors issue. It took 25 years. I have no problem in going through the legal process. But I am worried about the time it will take. I cannot stay for two–three years in a hotel. It is just not possible.
CNN-News18: I was going through the letter and it mentions that the height in tender was basically a non issue as a minor modification would have helped the chopper to fly 6000 metres. So the big question is, if it was such a small issue, why did they not mention in the first tender document?
Christian Michel: I don't know. I was not involved at that point of time, it strikes me as crazy. I agree. I was not there at that point of time but when I came across these documents later, I was surprised. It is a very, very good question you are asking.
CNN-News18: This is the big question that even the Indian investigative agencies are looking at and they believe that money has been paid for changing the flying height. And they have evidence that some sort of illegal gratification has travelled to different accounts in Mauritius and to different countries.
Christian Michel: They may, they may have. I cannot comment on that. But it has got nothing to do with me.
CNN-News18: Now on this question I expect an honest answer. There was a search by an agency in India and not only that, this document has been presented as evidence in the Italian court as well. It says that you had written a note to Peter Hullet. It says "As Mrs Gandhi is the driving force behind the VVIP chopper purchase she will not fly anymore in MI 8" and then you have also suggested names of advisors to Mrs Gandhi where you had very clearly said these are the people who should be targeted. Now do you deny such a note?
Christian Michel: No, I don't.
CNN-News18: Then why are you writing such notes?
Christian Michel: Because this is me giving good advice. Nobody likes to fly in and try to hold for compensation.
CNN-News18: Why should you target people in the political arena? Finally it is a Cabinet decision. Why should Ahmed Patel be involved, why should other ministers be involved? It is the Air force, that has to decide. Why should you target these people?
Christian Michel: Let me give you an answer on this one. You will understand this When you are trying to sell a product you want to get everyone in the environment, everyone around. Even the public should know what a great aircraft it is. So you market to everybody you can and the more important people you are marketing to, the better.
CNN-News18: But anyone would smell corruption in this because people in the political arena are being targeted by a company?
Christian Michel: No, if a company is sending you a brochure telling this is the best product, how will that be termed as corruption?
CNN-News18: It was a deal for VVIP choppers. These choppers were not for Ahmed Patel. It was for people like the Prime Minister and the President who would be flying in this chopper. Why should people in the political arena know about such a thing?
Christian Michel: It is in my opinion about people in the political arena. Today you may be the state minister, next you might become the Prime Minister. It is important to lobby everybody, that is why people print thousands of brochures. My recommendation is you lobby with everybody.
CNN-News18: You earlier said that you have never met these people. How would you know that these are the people who are the key decision makers or people who could have influenced the decision of Mrs Gandhi because Mrs Gandhi at that point in time was neither the Prime Minister nor was she holding any official position. She was only the president of a political party. Why should she be influenced in the entire deal?
Christian Michel: Very simple. You never know one day she might have changed her mind, she might have become a cabinet member and taken some position. Everyone that the newspapers show as important should be marketed to.
CNN-News18: Don't you think this is not the correct practice?
Christian Michel: Actually, everyone does this. Do you think when the Prime Minster, when he travels to America, is not shown the latest products, the latest war planes, the latest helicopters, the latest cars. He is taken around to all the factories. This is what all the manufacturers do.
CNN-News18: This letter that you have written alleging that the Indian Prime Minister met the Italian Prime Minister in the United States and they have done an unwritten secret deal, where the Indian government will go soft in the Italian marines case and in return his Italian counterpart will help in garnering evidence against members of Gandhi family, I hope you realize that these are very serious allegations. Do you have any evidence because you are pointing directly towards the Prime Minister of India?
Christian Michel: Yes, I am afraid, I am afraid, so my point about all of this is I think he has been badly advised. I was very happy for India when he was elected. I think he was elected by the country for the better. He is a good man but I think he has been wrongly advised, which is why I wanted to give him heads up. I don't think this is the focus. That is the point of my letter. How did I come to know about this? If I take a second of your time, I will give you the environment. I have a lot of activity with AgustaWestland - many, many contracts not related to VVIP. We were going through the settling of our family issues which were going well. We settled a number of issues last year and by the end of last year settled a few more. Everything was going well but suddenly during the first week of October last year we were told no more discussion, we don't want to see you anymore. So all my lawyers, it was a big legal team that broke off and we just wondered what happened. So I told my legal team to investigate and find out what happened. They came back after talking with their sources in New York and they gave me the details.
CNN-News18: But do you realize that it is only on hearsay?
Christian Michel: Wait, wait! I am not finished yet. Remember I have been in business and have worked with the largest companies of the world for 30 years. So I asked sources to check. Two of my sources came back exactly with the same story independently and they are willing to give explanations. That is when I took this to the International court.
CNN-News18: But don't you think people will think that you looking at a bargain using a political route by involving the Prime Minister. People will say you are trying to influence the investigative agencies using the political route.
Christian Michel: Investigative agencies have done their work. They already have the Italian documents. We know the result, it will be the same result. I have been through this and not been found guilty. This is not about who is guilty, who is not. This is looking for a wider picture. That is why I can't believe the Indian Prime Minister thinks so.
CNN-News18: If one goes through your letter, you say you are willing to face the CBI and the ED. You are willing to share some evidence and then you would like to leave. What sort of evidence can you share?
Christian Michel: What they can do is there can be a question-answer session. I will bring all of my documents with me. Any question they have, I will answer.
CNN-News18: But are you willing to share some sort of evidence with Indian authorities? Are you aware of corruption in AgustaWestland that can help Indian investigative agencies to come to some conclusion in the case?
Christian Michel: This is the reason why I am a bit useless. I have some information about internal corruption in Finmeccanica which is not in public domain. I have no evidence of any corruption inside India. India went ahead and bought the best aircraft in the world and I don't see why it has to be a corrupt deal.
CNN-News18: It is because there has been evidence in the past and that is the reason agencies in investigating in India. You can say that the Italian court has said that they have not found evidence of any international corruption. But in India they believe there was corruption in the deal and they have evidence.
Christian Michel: Indian agencies have exactly the same evidence that was in Italy. There is no new evidence.
CNN-News18: Because RCN has been issued against you, Indian agencies are looking forward to question you. What is the legal option you are left with?
Christian Michel: I am trying to make a case that this is unfair, that is the only legal option. I could have run away and stayed in a country where there is no extradition. I believe very much in the authorities and the legal system of the country, and I have to fight my case through the due process. If I lose, I will be having a cup of tea with you in a hotel in Delhi some day.
CNN-News18: Why was the plea bargain rejected in Italy?
Christian Michel: Because I am innocent. I don't need a plea bargain. I was offered a very good plea bargain, no arrest, no prison sentence, no payment but I refused it.
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